Audio description (AD) is a narration of important visual information in a video or multimedia product to make it more accessible to people who are blind or visually impaired. AD can provide context, clarify speakers, and describe visual elements that are not obvious from the audio, such as on-screen text, graphics, or actions. AD is often inserted into natural pauses in the program’s dialogue.
Special Guest Thomas Reid is back in the house to discuss his role and historical expertise in the formation of Audio Description and its potential for future accessibility for the visually impaired.
Thomas Ried is host and producer of the Podcast, Reid My Mind Radio
reidmymind.com
News Feed – Disney Parks Update Policy on the LINE -Cheryl Green
Content Round Up – Theatrical Release ‘Ezra’, May 31, 2024, -Adam Grimes
Disability Spotlight – The Social Audio Description Collective, -Nefertiti Matos Olivares
Transcript
Intro
AJ: If you wanna learn more about the show, catch up on the crew, get future episodes, transcripts, and more, you should subscribe through our website: ActingUpWithAJ.com. You can also check us out on Instagram @ActingUpWithAJ.
On today’s episode of Acting Up With AJ and Crew, you know, I’m very excited and very excited to bring you this episode today because we are talking about audio description, or AD, what it is, and who does it serve, the history of AD. Do you know it’s been around for over 30 years? And oh, we’re gonna be talking about it with returning guest and crew member Thomas Reid of Reid My Mind Radio. We’re also gonna be talking about the impact over the past 10 or 15 years, cultural competency, or racial sensitivity when it comes to the casting. [bouncy electronica] Without further ado, let’s get into it. It’s an all-new episode of Acting Up With AJ and Crew, and it starts right now!
THOMAS: It is an art. It truly is an art form. From my understanding, the technology already exists. It’s just not available yet.
SHAWNSY: I’m trying to visualize on how this process works.
AJ: AD is seen as just an access need.
THOMAS: The truth is that captions aren’t even up to standard yet. Yeah, they’re everywhere, but they’re often, they’re not equal. The audio description needs to fit the aesthetic and fit the culture of the film itself.
AJ: Or a part of the process, and not an afterthought.
SHAWNSY: Wondering what could potentially hold these companies accountable. Or does it need to be a law?
THOMAS: The quality of AD would be better if it were in the control of the creators of that project. And so, I’m talking about this is about the experience for everyone. For everyone. Yeah, Shawn said, “eye opening,” too. You caught that, AJ? [laughs]
AJ: Yeah. [guffaws]
SHAWNSY: [laughing] Shit!
THOMAS: Nah, I’m messing with you, man. [laughs]
[bouncy electronica fades]
AJ: Before we get started, I just wanted to give a quick definition of audio description. It reads as follows: “Greater than great audio description are key elements verbally depicted in media productions.”
[recorded clip plays]
AUDIO DESCRIBER: Light shimmers over a metallic logo of a word forming an arch over the letters “LTD Lucasfilm Limited.” [epic music plays] Light sweeps over the helmets and heads of various Star Wars characters and droids, including Darth Vader, BB-8 and C-3PO. An outline sharpens around a logo: Star Wars. [music crescendos, then fades]
[ominous music pulses and builds] From black, a crescent of light gradually swells in brightness. Below, the contours of three-dimensional letters appear from the dark, tilting and receding until they catch the light and display the name: Andor. A sharp spire rises from the center of the crescent, which arcs upward into a bladed point on either side to form an insignia similar to that of the Rebel Alliance. Coming together as one, the symbol and title grow weathered and tarnished before fading to black. [recorded clip and music fade]
Meet Thomas Reid
AJ: Hey, I’m in with Shawnsy, and today we are talking with Thomas Reid, host, podcast host, of Reid My Mind Radio. What’s up, Tom?
THOMAS: What’s going on, brother? How you doing?
AJ: I’m glad you’re here. He’s an official crew member of Acting Up With AJ and Crew. So, Tom, we’re so glad that you could be here today. I wanted to talk to you today about audio description, and what is it? How can you get access to it? How long has it been around? And what are some of the things that’s out there, and what are some of the things that you want in the future for it?
THOMAS: Wow. All at once? [laughs]
SHAWNSY: [chuckles]
AJ: Well, we could just, you know, well, let’s start with how— Like, so you are involved in AD. You are a consultant, and you’re a narrator. Let’s start with how long have you been involved in AD?
THOMAS: So I think I’ve been involved in AD since I became blind in 2004. Meaning for the most— So you said I’m a consultant. I am a narrator, and I’m an advocate and a consumer. And so, that’s why I say I’ll go back to 2004. Yeah. So, I’ve been involved in terms of narration since 2019 and consulting after that.
AJ: So, you knew about AD in 2004. How did you get involved in it as on—’cause you were using it as a consumer—how did you get involved on it on the other side, and why did you wanna become involved?
THOMAS: Yeah. So, as a consumer watching films and television with AD, mainly films, you know, it was such a cool experience for me because it gave me access again to the content and to just enjoying that and everything that comes with watching a film, all of the relationships, being able to watch things and have conversations with people, especially with my daughters, all of that stuff. So, to me, audio description was that access, and it made it all available. So, kind of while consuming it, I was like, oh, I feel like I could probably do this. Especially after I had started my podcast. So, I had equipment, and I was becoming better at sort of talking into microphones.
And I began to ask some people within the industry, reach out and, say, hey, you know, what would it take? And quite honestly, I felt as though I was being dissuaded from even thinking about it because folks would say things, you know, talk about the process. And that the process, they would make it clear the process involved sight and being able to see. So they would say things like, “Well, you’re in the studio, or you’re in the booth, and then there’s a screen up, and it has the time codes. And your script, which is also projected up onto that screen would have the time codes there. So you look and you know when to jump in. And so, you kind of have to be able to do that.” And knowing a little bit about production, my response was always, well, okay, that’s cool, but why does it have to be that way? There’s always multiple methods, right, of doing something.
So it wasn’t until 2019 that my first project came to me from someone that I was doing some work with on the podcast side, a person that you know, AJ.
AJ: Yeah, Cheryl Green.
THOMAS: The amazing Cheryl Green. She was the person who gave me my first opportunity to do some audio description. And we worked on a project together, and we both, we shared narration on this project, which was kind of cool. So I knew that okay, this can be done, right? Because I recorded it, and she did the rest of that particular one. So she chopped it up and put everything where it needed to be, where it needed to go.
Introduction to audio description
SHAWNSY: So originally, are they, I’m trying to visualize on how this process works. Like originally, do some of these actors are pretty much treating it like a karaoke machine? Are they reading subtitles? And then how does your process change?
THOMAS: Yeah, no. So, it’s not subtitles. So it’s a script, right? So audio description. Remember. So, audio description is a separate track where it’s filling in all of that information that otherwise, non-visually, you have no idea that it’s taking place on screen, okay? And so, basically, a person, a writer watches the film, and they write the script. They create that script for the narrator. Sometimes it’s the same person, sometimes it’s not. The narrator gets that script. And a lot of times, I think they record it sort of live. And that was the methodology that I spoke about where the film is playing, the timecode comes in, boom, you jump in, you try to hit your mark right there, you lay it down, it’s recorded. There’s a, you know, you’re in a booth.
[recorded clip plays]
AUDIO DESCRIBER: A red letter-N unfolds into a spectrum of colors.
THOMAS NARRATING AD: Home video footage.
D-ROC: I got this camera pointed toward this door because something special was about to happen. [laughter nearby] I can’t really speak on it, but there it goes, baby. It’s starting. Knowing me, it’s starting. All right, all right. You hear the clippers going on, though? Did you hear that? [hair clippers buzz]
THOMAS NARRATING AD: The Notorious B.I.G. Christopher Wallace.
D-ROC: My boy get three hairs, he get nervous. He don’t fuck around.
THOMAS NARRATING AD: He shaves.
B.I.G.: I can’t be, you know, looking like I’m 21 and shit, you know? I’m gonna keep that 18. [D-Roc and B.I.G. converse, new clip starts with quiet, pensive music]
THOMAS NARRATING AD: Text appears: 1995 Christopher, age 23.
MAN: Get that jump up. Get that jump!
THOMAS NARRATING AD: At a venue.
MAN: It was sold out.
MAN 2: Oh, yeah?
MAN 3: Next one, please. [many voices talking, singing]
THOMAS NARRATING AD: In an interview. D-roc, Damian Butler, childhood friend.
D-ROC: It’s kind of hard when you grow up with somebody that ends up successful ‘cause you will never look at them like that. And I used be looking at people. I’d just be like, “Yo, you’re doing all of this for Chris?”
THOMAS NARRATING AD: Biggie performs in an arena.
[crowds cheer, Biggie hypes the crowd, music slowly builds]
THOMAS NARRATING AD: The title appears: Biggie: I Got a Story to Tell. Audio description provided by International Digital Center. Written by Stephen Christopher. Voiced by Thomas Reid. Credits. Directed by Emmett Malloy. Produced by…. [film fades out].
THOMAS: And the engineer captures it, and you keep moving on until the next one. And again, I guess if you mess up, they can just rewind it, lay it down, you move on to the next one. So, that’s kind of the process. So that that script might be on a screen. It might be on a sheet of paper. But again, it could also be a digital version where if you have a screen reader user, you can get access to that, too. If you’re a Braille user, you can get access to that, too. It’s just a different method.
AJ: And it’s very interesting that you said you were dissuaded from doing it because am I correct? Really, wasn’t audio description, the creation of audio description, was started for and by blind people?
THOMAS: That’s correct. The common one that is quoted is out of a, it’s a couple out of DC, and it started in the live theater space, and the Pfanstiehls were the name. And so, oh, man, that’s terrible, because now her name is escaping me. But yes, there was a Dr. Pfanstiehl, and she was blind. And her husband, who did the narration in that live event, he was not. He was sighted. And then there’s another version of the history, in the history of audio description that takes place sort of on the West Coast. The Pfanstiehls were in DC. Out in San Francisco, there was a gentleman who was starting AD, and he wanted to kind of deliver AD through FM radio, went and did a whole master’s project. But the reason that he wanted to do that was because him and his good friend always liked to watch movies together, and he was doing audio description for his good friend who was blind. And they, because they wanted to have conversations, they enjoyed going to the films, he wanted to make that available to more people. So either, you know, if you quote the East Coast or the West Coast, there’s always somebody blind involved.
AJ: Wow. East Coast and West Coast? Wow. And I believe that me and you had a conversation before, and I was aware of audio description starting in 2013 or ‘14. And you said you were aware of it and became a consumer in 2004. But I was surprised one day ‘cause me and you were talking, and you said that audio description is actually 30 years old?
THOMAS: Yeah, yeah. So, if you go back, the Pfanstiehls were in the ‘80s when they started that. But again, that was in the live space. It wasn’t until like the 1990s where I think it was WGBH in Boston was some of the first folks to do audio description for PBS things and then movies. And then they started off doing some movies and television, but a lot of it was being done for children’s television on PBS in the ‘90s.
Newsfeed
[chill electronic music break]
AJ: And now it’s time for Newsfeed. We have a story that might impact your summer plans significantly if you’re headed to Disney theme parks. Cheryl Green has the story. [epic news theme music]
CHERYL: Hey, AJ, I’ve got a Disney Parks story for you. This is from an article that’s in The Washington Post. And they say “Disney will soon change its policies for theme park visitors with disabilities, restricting eligibility for services that help some people avoid waiting in line for rides.” Their disability access services are free, and here’s how it works. From the article: “For example, if someone wants to ride Space Mountain and the wait is 45 minutes long, they can request a slot 45 minutes later. They don’t have to stay in line while they wait, and they can use an expedited lane when they show up.” Under the new guidelines, the Disability Access Program is, “intended to accommodate a small percentage of guests who, due to a developmental disability like autism or similar, are unable to wait in a conventional queue for an extended period of time.”
This is gonna start May 20th at Walt Disney World and June 18th at Disneyland. But! Disney did not answer specific questions about what would be available for people with disabilities other than those laid out in the new policy. They said check the websites and follow up with employees if you need to have a conversation.
They have other things like a “return to queue” process that they’re working on, where people who need to take bathroom breaks while waiting in line can get back into line. They’re still working that out. And they have health professionals from Inspire Health Alliance that will help the Disney employees determine eligibility as needed. They will not require documentation like some theme parks like Universal and Six Flags do.
The article says that there’s been a huge rise in the number of people who want to use this service to help them avoid lines, and it coincided with a 2021 introduction of Genie Plus. That’s a paid service that lets people skip long lines. The price for that, depending on which park, was $17 to $27. On forums for Disney fans, social media and blogs, “people who said they or family members have used the service in the past for conditions such as multiple sclerosis, anxiety, breathing issues, and Crohn’s disease, expressed concern about what the changes would mean for them. Some say they saw the update as a way to force people to purchase Genie Plus if they wanted to avoid long lines. Many said they felt disappointed….”
The New York Post reported in 2013 that there were some rich people, rich families from New York City who hired “guides with disabilities” that would usher them to the front of the lines. And that was in 2013 when that was published. The article says, “The company said that in part because of misuse, the program had become unwieldy and that changes were needed to preserve it for the people for whom it was intended.” Disney does warn that there are consequences for making false statements to get this disability service, such as being permanently barred from entering these theme parks and resorts.
Okay, my head is spinning, AJ. The article in The Washington Post ends with assurance of their tough-on-false statements stance! But the problem is, who is gonna determine when false statements of disability are made? Like, especially when we’re talking about invisible disabilities.
There’s an article from 2016 by Elizabeth Picciuto where she repeatedly wrote that Disney doesn’t read doctor’s notes when they determine if someone needs accommodations or what the accommodations will be. And that was in The Washington Post article too. It sounds maybe to non-disabled people like it might be nice, but it also leaves it up to non-medical people to believe you that your disability or illness is real, and that the accommodations you request, like jumping to the front of the line, is reasonable. Like, they get to determine that for you. Mercy!
I would love if your audience would check out Episode 43 of the Disability Visibility Podcast called Disabled Fakers. Alice Wong talks to Doron Dorfman about his research into this, especially around alleged benefits fraud, which is extremely hard to pull off, by the way, and about how some do-gooders in the general public like to monitor strangers and lecture them about how fake their disabilities are, even when those disabilities are decidedly not fake. We need less of that and more outrage that when non-disabled people weasel their way into getting some extra access that’s supposed to be for sick and disabled people, the corporate response is to crack down and reduce accessibility for nearly everyone. Ugh! Just reminder: My head is spinning. I’m just glad that I record these stories on my own, AJ, because if we were live in the studio together having a conversation, ooh, I’d go on for days. All right, back to you, AJ. [news theme music fades]
Legal requirements for audio description
AJ: So, if this has been around for so long, and I’m, like, for example, I’ve been aware of such access things such as captions ever since I was a little kid. That’s just a part of the societal norm now for access. But why do you think people like myself, I’m legally blind, so I have low vision, so I’m aware of captions. I’m aware of people that use ASL or sign language, but I never heard of audio description until, I think, the documentary that I was a part of, Becoming Bulletproof. And this has been a game changer for me. But when you first told me that this is over 30 years old, I was shocked and surprised. And it seems to be catching on now in much more content, even though we still have a long way to go. But why do you think it seems to only be catching on maybe within the last 10 or 15 years?
THOMAS: Well, I think in the last 10 or 15 years is when it became a legal thing. So, the 21st Century Telecommunications Video Accessibility Act, I think that was in 2010, if I remember correctly, is what made that sort of a legal thing, where television stations had to produce a certain amount of audio description monthly. And that amount has gone up and is going up. But also, same thing for theaters and stuff, it became more of a requirement. So, there was a yeah, there’s a big difference. I mean, a lot of folks go and make those comparisons to captions, and there’s probably a whole bunch of reasons. I mean, you see captions. Captions are visual. And so, it’s easy to sort of note, oh, hey, what’s that? And then you kind of realize what it is. It’s a lot different than trying to describe something that’s not on screen. And it’s a audible thing, and you have to turn it on. It’s not automatically on. If it was, if that was the case, then more people would know about it, right? If you had to turn it off, that would make sense. It’s a lot easier for someone to turn it off than it is for someone non-visually to go through the process of turning it on. So I think that’s a real big part of why people know about it more. And again, and it’s just been in existence more. It’s in sports bars, right? You go to sports bars, clubs, there’s lots of hot music playing and all of that stuff, but you can see the captions on the screen.
SHAWNSY: And it seems to be a growing norm because of the Disney+s, the Hulus, the Netflix that are streaming, having such a huge database, needing to get subscribers. So, it’s like it just makes sense to have the audio description being a part of these releases.
THOMAS: Yeah, I mean, the streaming game has changed it a lot because even the streamers, there’s no real mandate for the streamers at this point. They’re doing it because they, well, because a lot of reasons. I mean, there’s a lot of advocacy stuff that went on to explain it to them and to let them understand why this is necessary, but they bought into it. But there’s also what I don’t want folks to get confused about is even when we talk about captions or we talk about audio description, there’s a difference between the amount and the quality. Because a lot of folks in the blind community quickly go, “Oh! Captions are everywhere, and everybody has great captions” and da da da da da. And that’s not the truth.
SHAWNSY: Hmm.
THOMAS: The truth is that captions aren’t even up to standard yet. Yeah, they’re everywhere, but they’re not equal. They’re not equal. And the same is true with audio description. So, there’s getting more audio description, but there’s also getting better audio description. And I think the better is what’s really important, yeah.
AJ: There can be quantity but not quality.
THOMAS: That’s right. Yeah, we’re starting to get quantity. But the quantity that’s coming out right now today, and for the foreseeable future, is really lacking in quality because a lot of them say, “okay, we have to do it,” but they just wanna get it done, and they’re trying to get it done quickly and cheaply, as cheap as possible.
SHAWNSY: Yeah, and I’m wondering what could potentially hold these companies accountable. Like, Academy Awards and all these other things hold movies to standards to try and reach these higher levels, box office. All these kind of things are kind of checks and balances to the reason to make a good film. I wonder if you might have any ideas on what could be ways that we can get to hold these companies accountable for it? Or does it need to be a law, like you were just saying, the accessibility going into law that made it mandatory?
Considering AD as part of the art and authentic casting
THOMAS: Yeah, I think part of it is law. I don’t think the law needs to go away. I think the law can get stronger. But I also think it’s a part of— So you mentioned the film companies, and right now the film companies aren’t the ones who actually provide the audio description. It’s the broadcasters and the streamers. So Disney as a channel, Disney+, produces or procures audio description from post-production companies. So, what I’ve been talking about for a while is I think that the quality of AD would be better if it were in the control of the creators of that project.
SHAWNSY: Right. Yeah.
THOMAS: So if Universal is making a film, and let’s say it’s Ryan Coo-, Coo— Oh, damn. [laughs] I just messed up his name!
AJ: Coogler. Coogler.
THOMAS: Huh?
AJ: Coogler.
THOMAS: Coogler! Coogler, right. Ryan Coogler. If he’s making a new film, and he’s aware, right, that this description, I’m gonna make sure that this description is in there and it’s thought about like any sort of accessibility, it’s thought about from the beginning, then I think that’s gonna do a lot for the quality. Because Ryan Coogler, and a filmmaker, a creative person who’s putting out a product, would want that audio description to best represent that product.
SHAWNSY: Right.
THOMAS: And I don’t think that’s the same. I think the folks who make it, a lot of them have really great intentions. Let me say that. And they want it to support the film as best as they can. But I think there’s no doubt in my mind that the person who would really do that is the creator of the film itself. And it would have all of the same, sort of the same aesthetic as the film does, and it would really feel genuine to the film, which I think is what’s lacking in a lot of cases.
SHAWNSY: Yeah, making it part of the art form, like part of product.
THOMAS: Exactly, exactly. And that’s a big thing. We talk about that all the time. That audio description is not just about accessibility, it is an art. It truly is an art form. So, let’s look at it that way, as a tool in the creation process.
AJ: If it’s all in there, a universal design type of thing or a part of the process and not an afterthought or not just seen as—I’m not saying that this is bad because we do need the access. We have access needs—but a part, not just seeing— ‘Cause a lot of times, access needs are seen as an afterthought or like, oh, man, we have to do this, or it’s a requirement. And then you get, because I’ve heard stories about producers complaining, “We don’t have the money.” But if it’s a part of the creative art, that would be so much better.
THOMAS: Yeah. Put it in the budget, you know? Put in the budget beforehand, before production and stuff.
AJ: And it would be organic and authentic.
Now, Thomas, I wanna talk about in doing audio description, is it as important as who’s behind the mic being the narrator as it is who’s writing the script?
SHAWNSY: Yeah, it makes me really in comparison, to add on to your question is, AJ, I’m really thinking about audiobooks that are done nowadays where it’s either some of them are done with a single narrator reading the whole entire book, and then some of them have multiple actors playing the speaking roles of these characters that are being portrayed and then a narrator playing on top. Is there a comparison with audio description, or is it better to have just one person describing and just doing it properly?
THOMAS: Well, yeah, I think it depends. It really depends on the case. So, for example, some of the things that we have implemented, and some projects that I’ve worked on with the Social Audio Description Collective, for example, when we do a project that has a significant amount of subtitles—and so, those are the text that you’re reading from someone on screen that’s in another language or something, right? Let’s say for that—we do like to incorporate different voices for those, and a big part of that is to make sure they’re as authentic as possible. So if those are Spanish speaking people, then we would try to find a Spanish speaking person so that it sounds authentic, right? I think the same is true with the voice of the narrator. So, I like to say that the audio description needs to fit the aesthetic and fit the culture of the film itself. So if that film is a film that takes place in a specific culture, whatever that is, if it’s African American, if it’s Latino, whatever, then the narrator should be of that culture.
SHAWNSY: Yeah, we’ve been talking about authentic casting this entire season here.
THOMAS: Exactly.
AJ: And I know, would you mind sharing with us an experience where there wasn’t that cultural authentic-ness?
THOMAS: Sure. Yeah. No, I just dropped an episode that’s all about that last week. So, there was a film, and to me, this is an egregious offense of that. There’s a documentary by Tracee Ellis Ross that came out called The Hair Tales. And that particular one is all about Black women and their hair. And so, if anyone knows anything about Black women and their hair, it is, that’s a, it’s a political thing. It’s not just an aesthetic. It’s not just about looks, you know? It goes into culture, it goes into family, it goes into so many things. Definitely political. And the narrator of that film was a white woman.
[clip plays from The Hair Tales with upbeat music in the background]
JESSICA CRUEL: When I think about the magazine and brand that I’m trying to create, it’s one where you can open the pages and see a woman with locs, a short-cropped afro. You could see a bald woman. It’s so important that we show young women that variety, because otherwise, they’ll think they need to fit into something that they’re not.
AUDIO DESCRIBER: In the salon, Jass.
JASS: When we diversify this hair game, it’s not just the afro kinky look. [upbeat music fades] It’s not just locs. It’s not just braids. It’s not just relaxed hair. It’s a plethora of different styles that we can achieve. [bright, cheery music]
AUDIO DESCRIBER: A photo of young Oprah.
TRACEE: Do you remember the first time you did your own hair?
OPRAH: I specifically remember doing it myself is once I got a job in television. [recorded clip fades]
THOMAS: And to me, that was, why should a blind, and I’ll just— Why should a blind Black woman who’s gonna, who that show was for, Black women, right? That’s the audience for that show.
SHAWNSY: Yeah.
THOMAS: Why should a blind Black woman experience that film through the filter of a white woman? That does not sound right to me, because if Tracee Ellis Ross was to cast a narrator, just a general narrator in that role, I doubt it would be a white woman.
SHAWNSY: Right. It’s like that immediate loss of immersion.
THOMAS: Yeah. So why should our experience as blind people, as AD consumers, be any different from what Tracee Ross, Tracee Ellis Ross, intended? It shouldn’t. It shouldn’t.
AJ: And I think this goes back to it being a part of, AD being a part of the creative ingredients, being a part of the fabric versus— ‘Cause I, and I can’t say for sure, but I bet you that was an oversight because AD is seen, and it is, but AD is seen as just an access need. So they were like, we have the AD. We need a narrator. That narrator was hired, but without thinking of the cultural significance or the impact or the immersion of the story.
THOMAS: Yeah, 100%. I think…I don’t know, I think I would say that it goes beyond that, too. I think there’s some intersectionality when it comes to disability in general, that folks think disability, and they don’t think anything else, as though we don’t cross. So it’s, okay, it’s just, like you said, it’s just about access. But folks don’t see that there’s a difference in someone who is Black and blind as opposed to just quote-unquote “just blind,” right? So they don’t see those intersections.
AJ: And there’s nuance and not saying, not trying to make it a fight here, but I don’t think, I’m just guessing, Thomas. But I don’t think if, ‘cause you are an AD narrator. And I don’t think if there was a film about an Irish family, Irish culture, I don’t think you would be cast to do that narration.
THOMAS: I don’t think I would.
AJ: [chuckles]
THOMAS: [laughs] In fact, I very much doubt it.
AJ: And speaking of that. And I don’t remember me and you talked about a big one that was huge in our culture in terms of it was a big cultural moment for Africans and Black people all over the world with Black Panther. But Black Panther was narrated by a British white man.
THOMAS: The colonizer. Correct.
SHAWNSY: [laughs]
AJ: Yes, yes.
THOMAS: [laughs]
[recorded clip from Black Panther plays with rousing music in the background and a singing voice ringing out throughout the clip]
AUDIO DESCRIPTION: T’Challa sits beside Nakia, who holds his hand dotingly. Okoye gazes out the window.
OKOYE: Sister Nakia, my prince.
NAKIA: We are home.
AUDIO DESCRIPTION: Wakanda. Mist floats around mountain ridges. Nakia and T’Challa join Okoye at the window. [jet whirs] The jet flies above a canyon nestled between vast shelves of rock. Shepherds wave on a slope of wild grass as the jet soars overhead. Two men gallop over scrub land on horses and wave up at the jet. The jet fires its boosters and accelerates away. It approaches a mountain.
[triumphant, epic music, ship whooshing past]
T’CHALLA: This never gets old.
AUDIO DESCRIPTION: They fly straight at the mountain as though they’re going to crash into it, only to fly straight through it like it’s a hologram and approach a futuristic city of tall buildings. [music turns epic and regal] The jet soars over the tops of the skyscrapers. A train glides along a track between the glass and metal buildings. The jet approaches two large circular towers. [music builds and soars] The jet backs around and hovers down to land. Dignitaries and female warriors, the Dora Milaje, stand waiting as the jet touches down. [music softens] The Queen Ramonda, wearing a tall white hat and a gown with arch shaped shoulders, stands between a guard and 20-ish princess. Shuri, T’Challa, Nakia, and Okoye leave the jet via a flight of stairs, and the warriors salute. [record clip ends]
THOMAS: I mean, you know, that’s the one that I talked about it so much, man. It’s, again, egregious, right? [laughs] It’s just like, how are you gonna make that choice? Why would you make that choice? And I’ve been told…I’ve been told the quote-unquote “reason.” Someone knew that it goes to some transactional things that were taking place or whatever the case may be. I don’t really care. It’s wrong. It’s not…it’s not the experience. And again, it’s not just about— Because I think folks get this confused. When I say it’s about an authentic experience for AD consumers, I mean all AD consumers. It’s egregious for a Black woman to have to watch The Hair Tales with a white voice, but I feel like it’s the same for anyone. If a white woman or white guy, a Asian, whatever, you should be able to experience that the way it was intended. And so, I’m talking about this is about the experience for everyone. For everyone.
So yeah, I mean, Black Panther was just another one. It was the first one that I spoke about, but it was not the first one that ever happened. I mean, this has been going on for a while, and it obviously continues to go on. And there are more people, thankfully, thinking about it and responding to it appropriately. But I don’t think enough because, you know, I mentioned The Hair Tales. Abbott Elementary, which is another one. That’s takes place in Philadelphia in a predominantly Black school district, right? It was a white person narrating both of those seasons, I believe. Reasonable Doubt, another thing on Hulu that I saw, which is all about this lawyer, it’s very much in Black culture that the title itself is a Jay-Z album, and it was taken from the Jay-Z album. So like, you know, again, a white person doing that. And I don’t think that’s correct. I don’t think that’s right.
SHAWNSY: Yeah, and I’m thinking about the voice actor community as well. Like, predominantly, there’s so much talent out there that are doing video games, that are doing anime, doing all these cartoon voice overs that have extremely good voices. It’s not like there’s just one old guy in the basement that he’s the only one available to do this stuff, so we’re just making them do it. Maybe that was the case when it first started 30 years ago when the guy was doing it for his wife. But in today’s age, there are so many voice actors that are out there and talented and can play any of those voice roles.
THOMAS: Absolutely. And it’s not hard to find them. We have this thing. I don’t know if you heard of it, guys, but it’s called the internet.
AJ and SHAWNSY: [laugh]
THOMAS: And there’s a—
AJ: Say what?
SHAWNSY: We’re using that right now?!
ALL: [laugh]
THOMAS: Oh my God! You’re right! So yeah. Like, it’s not hard to find people of color to do that narration. It really isn’t that hard.
[chill music]
Content Roundup
AJ: And now it’s time for your Content Roundup. Here’s this generation’s Don Pardo, Adam Grimes! Adam, what’s going on?
ADAM: That was your host, AJ Murray!!! [delighted chuckle] Thank you for the kind intro, AJ. It’s Adam with the Content Roundup. And today we are highlighting the new film Ezra, which is in theaters in less than two weeks, on May 31st. Make sure you check it out.
The film Ezra centers on stand-up comedian Max, played by Bobby Cannavale, and his son Ezra, an 11-year-old child with autism played by William A. Fitzgerald. At odds with his wife Jenna, played by Rose Byrne, on how to raise Ezra, who has been having troubles at school, Max decides to take Ezra on a cross-country road trip when he’s given the opportunity to make an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live! Ezra was directed by Tony Goldwyn, and the screenplay was written by his close personal friend Tony Spiridakis, who is a father of a son with autism. For more on this, you have to check out Tony Goldwyn’s article on the Variety website entitled Director Tony Goldwyn on Making Road Trip Dramedy Ezra After Decades-long Friendship. This article highlights their relationship and the history of how the movie Ezra came to be.
Also, a fantastic article published by Anne Borden King on the website Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism, which is ThinkingAutismGuide.com, gave this incredible insight into the making of the film. “Another unique aspect of this film is its neurodiversity approach. For starters, director Tony Goldwyn insisted that an autistic actor play Ezra. The associate producer of the film, Alex Plank, has autism as well. The goal was not only to have an authentic film, but to create a film set that was accessible for neurodivergent actors and/or crew. Everyone took part in an autism education session led by Plank, who was on set throughout the production. The team took the time to fully explore the unfamiliar terrain of a film set with Fitzgerald, as it is the young actor’s first film. Accommodations included proactively considered factors such as the location of actors’ trailers in relationship to noise, and carefully managing the unpredictability of a film shoot schedule and other factors.”
For more on this, please check out more of Anne’s article at ThinkingAutismGuide.com. Ezra really seems to be a film about telling a great story along with providing great representation both on camera and behind the scenes. You can check out Ezra in theaters May 31st. Now back to you, AJ. Ladies and gentlemen, AJ Murrayyyyyyy!
AJ: Thanks, Adam. Please check your local theaters for your access needs, audio description and closed captioning. And now, back to more show. You’re listening to Acting Up With AJ and Crew. [chill music fades]
Audio description pre-shows and tech
AJ: I’m so grateful for this conversation. There’s so much more that we can get into. Before we leave this AD conversation, I’d be remiss not to mention some of the things coming down the pike in the future in terms of AD, like a preview menu. Could we get into what that is?
THOMAS: You said, do you mean the pre-show? Do you mean the pre-show?
AJ: Like the pre-show.
THOMAS: Oh.
AJ: I always mess it up. Sorry.
THOMAS: No, it’s all good!
AJ: Pre-show, which I like, which I really love that idea. ‘Cause a lot of times with AD, there’s so much more that can be cut, especially with if there’s a film that has so much involved on screen, especially within the cinematography’s so many colors, or you know, that might not be able to fit within the movie time itself. But talk about the pre-show.
THOMAS: Yeah. So the pre-show really comes from the live space, in the live theater space. So again, yeah, the limitations automatically there when it comes to audio description is the fact that you have a very limited amount of time to pack in all of that information during those scenes where there’s no dialogue taking place and explain all of the stuff that needs to be, not explained, but provide information to that stuff. So, in the theater, what they do is you’re, as an AD consumer, many times you can get to the theater a little early. You’ll be invited in, and what they do is they have the cast members come out in their role, right, in character. And so, you can hear they’ll talk to you, they’ll introduce themselves, maybe you’ll hear their accent, right? You’ll get to recognize their voice, to know who they are. And sometimes they’ll bring out the costumes and let you feel them to see. You know, it might be an elaborate dress, so you kind of get the sense of what this is like. Even letting you get up on stage sometimes to get an idea of what the scenery looks like, right? Or they’ll talk to you about it, whatever the case may be. So they have a lot of time to provide that information to you beforehand. Now sometimes, they’re pre-recording that, so maybe you can even get that before you get to the theater. You might not even have to go to a theater. So that’s an option. Again, because of that thing that apparently you all know about called the internet. So you can make these MP3 files available, right?
SHAWNSY: Yeah, right.
THOMAS: So there’s a lot more ways to provide information where you’re not within those confines of whatever the film has.
SHAWNSY: Now you’re talking about theater. Now are they trying to do something like this for film?
THOMAS: Well, that’s what we’ve been, you know, many of us have been kind of talking about. And so, yeah, there are some cases where they can do that or have done that. There was a group who put together a pre-show for Hamilton that was on Disney. So it wasn’t done by the same organization, but they kind of went back and they did it. They provided a pre-show because in Hamilton, something like Hamilton, you have really limited time, right?
AJ: Yeah!
SHAWNSY: Yeah.
THOMAS: Because you’re stepping, you don’t wanna step on those songs. You can’t step on the songs because that’s part of the whole, that’s part of the whole thing.
SHAWNSY: Man, that’s just the way rap is. They just, they just keep going one flow into the next.
THOMAS: Yeah. Well, I mean, and this is a musical. So there’s gonna be. Whether it be rap, whatever. So, it’s part of the dialogue. So, what they were able to do is to kind of give you a little bit more information about some of the characters, what did they look like. And it was okay. And it’s no shots to them. It was okay. But yeah. So something like when we talk about Black Panther, I think a pre-show is even more warranted because it takes place in a world that no one has ever seen.
SHAWNSY: Yeah, right.
THOMAS: Right? So you, I wouldn’t have, as someone who’s seen, I don’t necessarily have references to what it looks like because it’s sci-fi. It doesn’t exist. It never existed anywhere. So you could really, really take some time to explore, for example, the architecture. I remember one of the ways it was described in the film was like a futuristic building. Like, that doesn’t say anything.
AJ and SHAWNSY: [laugh]
THOMAS: Because the first thing that came up to my mind, as a old guy, was The Jetsons. I grew up on The Jetsons. So when you talk about futuristic buildings, that’s what I think of, right? [laughs]
SHAWNSY: We’re looking at, like, the Seattle skyscrapers.
THOMAS: Exactly, exactly. [laughs]
AJ: Star Wars!
THOMAS: So, yeah. And so, the pre-show would enable writers to really explore that. And I think there’s a lot more that could be done with it. Again, going back to what I said about the live space, like being in character. Imagine if you can— And I’ve seen they did one for a film where they had the characters introduce themselves in an MP3 file that you can download, and they’re telling you about who they are, right? So, I come from here, this is what I look like. They do a self, they do an image description, self-description. And so, they put all of that information into a pre-show. And now you don’t necessarily have to put it in, or you’re not constrained by those times, again. So, there’s a lot, a lot. And it’s funny because I wish I could figure out because I feel like that could be a, that could be a really, really cool thing. I don’t know the financial model to make that something viable, but I feel like pre-shows could be a really, really cool thing. I think there’s a lot. There’s a lot of ideas that I have around pre-shows that I’m not necessarily gonna share now. [laughs] But I think there’s a lot that could be done with it.
SHAWNSY: I mean, especially somebody like Marvel, they’re already doing stuff like that when they’re doing those little short videos about specific heroes. Like, they’re already starting to do these kind of things with so many movie after movie after movie. They’re doing little deep dives of them.
THOMAS: Mmhmm, yeah.
SHAWNSY: Now, I also had a question, too, thinking about on what Amazon does with their little screen. When you pause the movie, all of a sudden, some information pops up because a specific actor is on the screen, and it gives you that actor’s name. It gives you like a little bit of tidbits about the film. I wonder about interactivity when someone, when they’re saying, “Oh, a futuristic building,” could you not necessarily pause the movie, but have something that can be clicked for further detail if you’re willing to allow description to kind of cover up a little bit a dialogue since you’ve seen the movie maybe already?
THOMAS: Yep. You’re in the future, bro. That’s the future. And that interactivity, from my understanding, the technology already exists. It’s just not available yet, right? So, TV in the future’s gonna look a lot different, from my understanding, because of that interactivity. Because it’s there, because it’s digital. So yeah, that would be exactly it. Oh, they mentioned the building, and you’re like, oh wait. Pause. Yeah, I would pause it, right? What is that, what does that actually look like? And then it could give you more description about the thing now.
AJ: Yeah. Because I was listening to some audio description, and I guess it depends on the company or who’s the writer, ‘cause I’ve listened to some audio description, and it’s very descriptive. Like, they mention the color palette, and they mention so much stuff, the mood of how it is. Some audio description is very descriptive, like they said, like, “This is a fat, bald, old man,” you know? And I’m like, they really got into some of the detail. But there are others, and sometimes I get so frustrated because I’m partially sighted, so I can see a little bit. And I’m like, well, there are some things in the audio description that wasn’t described. So my friends that are fully blind, they’re not gonna get the full experience ‘cause the audio description didn’t mention it.
SHAWNSY: Yeah. That was eye opening for me when we were watching Music, and it didn’t have AD. And especially during those crazy dance numbers, when it was just music going on and a lot of colors going all over the place to try and do it in a succinct manner to give you those descriptions and still give you the whole vibe that was going on in the scene ‘cause there was a lot going on.
THOMAS: Yeah.
AJ: Yeah, Shawn did it for me.
THOMAS: Yeah. Shawn said, “eye opening,” too. You caught that, AJ? [delighted laugh]
SHAWNSY: Shit! [all laugh uproariously]
THOMAS: I’m messing with you, man.
SHAWNSY: Okay!
AJ: In our cases, would it be “ear opening” or? [laughs fade to happy chuckles]
SHAWNSY: Mind opening? Yeah.
THOMAS: No, it’s all good. [laughs] That’s exactly what it is.
Reid My Mind Radio podcast
AJ: But Thomas, I also wanna, I wanna talk about your podcast ‘cause for the audience that’s listening out there right now, if you wanna hear about conversations like this and more, you can check out Thomas’s podcast. It’s called Reid My Mind Radio, and he even goes into a whole series called Flipping the Script on Audio Description. Thomas, why don’t you tell us about your podcast? ‘Cause it’s a really dope podcast.
THOMAS: Thank you, brother. I appreciate that. Yeah, the podcast, the tag is, “I feature compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability in general. And occasionally I share experiences of my own as a man adjusting to becoming blind as an adult.” And so, yeah, I usually chop it up into seasons, which follow a theme. And so, like Flipping the Script on Audio Description where I like to go beyond the mainstream conversations about audio description. Often folks are just talking about, oh, I like this, I like that, or this particular film. But audio description goes way beyond entertainment, and it impacts politics, it impacts relationships, it impacts a lot of different things. And there’s a lot of places it can go and it will go in the future, hopefully. But there’s also a lot of problems with it. And so, I wanna talk about all of those things. And yeah, that’s part of what we do. But then yeah, sometimes I feature cool people like AJ! AJ was on the podcast. That was a dope one.
AJ: Yeah, yeah!
THOMAS: And just kind of talk about their lives. But I like to, it’s not just a conversation that’s straightforward. I like to chop it up and select the things that I think help move along a narrative specifically, and I like to flavor that a little bit with some music and sound design. And so, again, it’s not just a straight conversation. It’s a little bit different. It’s a little bit like maybe some might say an NPR, but maybe a cooler NPR type of programming.
AJ: Yeah, definitely.
THOMAS: A little bit of like a documentary maybe, but with some funky-ass music. Yeah. [chuckles]
AJ: Yeah, and that’s because you are from the Bronx, right?
THOMAS: No doubt. No doubt.
AJ: So, you gotta represent the Bronx.
THOMAS: No doubt.
AJ: Fully represent. That’s Reid My Mind Radio. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts, right?
THOMAS: That’s right. But you know, AJ, you wanna tell them, or should I tell them, like the one thing that they have to remember? Because you might not get it if you don’t remember that Reid is R to the…
THOMAS and AJ: E I D!
AJ: Yeah!
THOMAS: That’s right! [happy laugh]
AJ: Yeah, yeah. Reid My Mind Radio. Thank you so much, Thomas, for coming on the podcast. Like I said, you are a member of the crew, so you’re gonna be back periodically.
THOMAS: Yes, sir.
AJ: And we’re gonna chop it up some more. And thanks for coming to the show. This really means a lot to me.
THOMAS: Well, thank you for inviting me, brother. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
[chill ambient music]
Disability Spotlight
AJ: And now it’s time for Disability Spotlight. Early on the show, Thomas mentioned the Social Audio Description Collective. Well, here with us now is a special guest from the collective to tell us more. It’s Nefertiti Olivares. Nefertiti, welcome to the show.
NEFERTITI: Thanks, AJ. The Social Audio Description Collective values the human voice in audio description. Human voices are engaging and create a connection with the viewer. The human voice is capable of capturing nuance that a synthesized voice is incapable of. And we only use human writers, not AI. We create audio description for the world as it is, not for an idealized world that is race neutral or apolitical. There is no such thing as objectivity. We all live in society and have biases, prejudices, limitations, and a point of view. Our AD, like our collective, is inclusive, expressing and reflecting the multicultural and multiracial world we live in. Many of us are BIPOC, blind, disabled, women, and/or LGBT+.
We want the work to reflect the diversity of the content and also the audience. If we’re working on a film that portrays a culture that is not our own, we will make an effort to involve people who can speak to that culture in order to provide the most authentic audio description we can.
Besides our paid work, we are known for our pro bono, or vigilante, AD. As time allows, we describe videos that need AD, such as new release trailers and public domain feature films. Anyone can request that we provide AD, particularly for public domain works, through our website. I would encourage anyone to find out more about our work on our website at www.SocialAudioDescription.com. [chill ambient music fades into epic news theme music]
Wrap-up
AJ: Thanks for joining us today. We really hope you enjoyed today’s episode. As always, we really enjoyed making it and producing it for you. So, for Acting Up contributor Adam Grimes, research contributor Jessica Marks, producers Shawnsy Billops, segment producer Cheryl Green, and myself, Ajani AJ Murray, come and join the crew. Our next episode, we’re gonna be talking about the movie The Ringer!
